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AngryLittlePrincess	Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 13 2011, 12:22 AM EDT Jane notices a man carrying a gun at a rally and commits himself to prove that the man is a psychopath, on the brink of murdering someone. Meanwhile, Lisbon investigates the death of a photographer at the same rally. Looks like another great epi.......chat away! Post reply Do you find this valuable? Keyword tags: None
hypnoclue	1. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 14 2011, 8:45 AM EDT So I happened to watch this show with a friend, who is not a particular fan of The Mentalist. Do you know what it's like to have someone yelling 'entrapment' and 'how freak- ing ridiculous', every time the police intervened with wannabe murderer? I couldn't ignore it. Anyhoo, that aside. No surprise that J has psycho/sociopathic tendencies. Tell us something we don't know. Baby-boss just showed us what we can expect to see from RJ - a mirror image of Jane. Which of course, is only right. That's if we ever see or hear from RJ again. And I'd better, or I'll be mighty peeved. Wainwright reminds me a little, of Dr. Montague in ep 312. (The Decision Scientist, who knew everything and nothing at the same time and whose world was reduced to equations. J was 'amused' by her and enjoyed toying with her.) My, hasn't the team changed. A very different welcome for Wainwright than the one Hightower received, when L was nervous and the team was on its best behaviour. Now J mocks Luther; VP questions his decisions immediately, L ignores him, and Cho orders him about - whoa!! - in the field. Is this guy permanent? So much CHOness in this ep! Godz he's been great this season. 'You're under arrest for the attempted murder of...everybody.' YAY!! So much to enjoy about this ep - the great slow motion scene, when J's senses are alerted; all the Cholicious scenes; VP opening up about the shooting, as a victim of abuse; Rigsby making a funny about it; the game-playing between J and W, the coup de grace when J uses him as the 'stressor.' Entrapment or not, this ep was fun. The introduction of A New Character gave it a lift. I do believe that's called Story Development, which is a distant cousin of Character Development, (both of them foul phrases, iyam.) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hypnoclue	2. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 14 2011, 9:20 PM EDT Tumbleweed Town....whoosh, there goes another one... So just talking amongst myself then, Having rewatched this ep by myself - what a joy - turns out I quite like Luther. Fascinating - the word he uses for J, and how he approaches J. He's wanting to analyze him under a microscope, like a bug, since J has a mental acuity that LW can only aspire to. I don't think there was any devious uber-plan in W's mind, in this ep. He was just outsmarted by J at every turn. And there seems to be a willingness to learn and defer to those who know better. Nice quality. Perhaps the 'body language' moment was the choicest for me. 'See? You're normal' says J, after W mimics his hand gesture, then realises what he's done. Now either W is playing a cunning game, and allowing himself to be bested, or he was genuinely done by J - and his face shows that. Then he was done again by J, re the 'stressor' incident. Interesting, that to get back at J - a little childish iyam - he runs the psychopathy test on J and proclaims him a psychopath. Yeah. Like that's how a psychologist comes to such a conclusion. His apparent dismissal of L - 'what about my passion?' - was interesting. He only has eyes for J, so to speak. A little spooky that J basically took over and ran the case - or the flim flam - whichever you want to call it, while L was off proving her own point, that Willie was innocent. A certain isolation there re L, even though she moved in and out of the main case... Have to say I'm enjoying the new and improved VP. Brooding, with a personality other than Snow White. And just showing the extent of my obsession with this show: What were the instruments J suggested L played when she was at school, in ep 211? Can't be fussed finding out, but was a saxaphone mentioned by J? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
incognitodoom	3. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 15 2011, 12:53 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 12:56 AM EDT Psychologists use tests to find indicators for a possible diagnosis very often. All in all the what I think the guy meant is that he now knows somewhat how Jane works and how "dangerous" he can be, as he does not think of the consequences and manipulate events and people to get what he wants without any regard or conscience. Not actually giving a diagnostic. All in all was a very good episode. A young new boss, with not too much experience but seemingly smarter than the others that could see characteristics in Jane that makes him plausible of being a "sociopath". Yet because of he being so young very few would take him seriously, specially after Jane made him loose some face with his stunt. I think this will play at the very least a somewhat important role in the RJ storyline. I do not think they would bring a new guy like this on a fourth season just to be irrelevant, or a pawn in the SL. I do not think he will be another Brosco or Hightower, and his role will be somewhat more important, although not necessarily without subtlety. As for Van Pelt, I said it once and say it again, I think her role in the series will turn out to be very important in the whole RJ saga. I have never think of her as a damsel in distress but as a dormant volcano who has to do more with Jane and RJ that it seems. Although admittedly I can only guess what that role is, as she is being played too much, specially lately, as a wild card, with noone knowing what part she will play or is playing in the overall game. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hypnoclue	4. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 15 2011, 7:30 AM EDT Looks like it's just you and me and the shadows incy my friend. The test Wainwright ran on Tibbs showed him to be' normal', even though he was a true psycho, while the test run on Jane showed him to be a psychopath. How accurate is the test ? Normally these diagnostic tools are not used in isolation, irl. Here's the thing: Wainwright, as a forensic psych, has the power to make or break Jane. Part of his role would be to evaluate the CBI personnel; and he's already evaluated J as a clinical psychopath. Somewhat disturbing for Jane's future, one might think... One wonders why such an under-qualified Agent was brought in to lead the team which has closed more cases than any other in the CBI. (Admittedly Jane has corrupted them, but that has to be a good thing, hehe.) It would be easy to say, W's there to bring J down, but then, Why? Bertram could have fired his sorry tail earlier, but chose not to, because J's the most valuable asset he has. So why bring in the whizzkid to get rid of J? It don't make sense. Maybe W's there to help him, in his capacity as a psychologist? Okay, not that either, hehe...although maybe he's there in a psych role, for the lot of them. They could all do with a bit of couch action. I think the entire team is loyal to Jane. I loved it when Rigsby said of Wainwright, '...but he's hardly qualified', to which Cho replied, 'You get used to it.' Ref to Jane, hehe. Yeah I loved this ep too. I'd genuflect to Mr. Heller, but I don't want to appear desperate. However, on a girlie note: I have fallen in love with SB all over again. Does he look HAWT this season, or what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And his acting - blood y brilliant. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
gonesouth	5. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 15 2011, 9:27 AM EDT I love the new direction they took in the new boss theme. I think Jane outsmarted him at every turn. Grace has gotten to be Zena Warrier Princess,lol. I wonder if she can work thru her trauma by herself? I loved how Jane got to be the boss of the con. I loved Cho saying you are under arrest for the attempted murder of ... everybody. It was an excellent episode. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hypnoclue	6. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 15 2011, 9:41 PM EDT Hey Princess if you're still around, Took a look at ep 211, and discovered that Jane never did mention the sax, when questioning L about what instrument she played at school. Question answered. She played sax. (I know, being happy over such a mindless piece of trivia is pathetic. Guilty and embracing it, hehe.) In the opening scene, where the protesters were wearing red shirts, are we talking a glimpse of RSRJ, or am I now utterly paranoid about him. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
incognitodoom	7. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 16 2011, 6:12 PM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 16 2011, 6:17 PM EDT "Looks like it's just you and me and the shadows incy my friend. The test Wainwright ran on Tibbs showed him to be' normal', even though he was a true psycho, while the test run on Jane showed him to be a psychopath. How accurate is the test ? Normally these diagnostic tools are not used in isolation, irl. " The test ran on Tibbs was according to just one job interview, he did not have much data on the guy, except what appeared on paper. In opposition he does have a lot of data on Jane, not counting that the guy used to dedicate himself to rip people off. However you are right that these tests are not run alone, which is why noone has given a diagnosis to Jane, just the guy mentioned that the test would tag Jane as a sociopath because of the indicators that the test rely in. That is not a diagnosis or a true evaluation, for Wainwright is just an indicator of how dangerous is Jane's behavior for which he has to adjust. Not because he believes Jane is a killer, but because he knows he can't trust anything he says or do as the real intention behind it, that is all. Which is hardly a surprise, just that noone had dared to say it aloud before. If the guy thought Jane as a true psychopath or sociopath I am sure he would recommend that Jane would be let go and for he to enter some kind of psychological treatment which is what he wanted to do with Tibbs. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hypnoclue	8. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 16 2011, 7:29 PM EDT "The test ran on Tibbs was according to just one job interview, he did not have much data on the guy, except what appeared on paper. In opposition he does have a lot of data on Jane, not counting that the guy used to dedicate himself to rip people off. However you are right that these tests are not run alone, which is why noone has given a diagnosis to Jane, just the guy mentioned that the test would tag Jane as a sociopath because of the indicators that the test rely in. That is not a diagnosis or a true evaluation, for Wainwright is just an indicator of how dangerous is Jane's behavior for which he has to adjust. Not because he believes Jane is a killer, but because he knows he can't trust anything he says or do as the real intention behind it, that is all. Which is hardly a surprise, just that noone had dared to say it aloud before. If the guy thought Jane as a true psychopath or sociopath I am sure he would recommend that Jane would be let go and for he to enter some kind of psychological treatment which is what he wanted to do with Tibbs. " Very canny observations incy! I mentioned somewhere above that, 'Like that's how a psychologist comes to such a conclusion', ie. making a serious evaluation on the basis of one psychopath test. Of course they don't. W was bested by Jane from the moment he entered the office: W: I pride myself on two things - trust and transparency. So J goes straight for the jugular - his youth. J: Excellent, so you'll tell us how old you are because R's running a pool. W doesn't answer, but now knows who he's dealing with. I said earlier that W used the test results, to 'get back' at J, like a little boy imo, because J'd outdone him; and I think that's true. So W was just messing with J and trying to score a point, which he did. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hypnoclue	9. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 16 2011, 7:49 PM EDT continuing... J is somewhat taken aback by the evaluation, and has to run to L for reassurance. How gorgeous is that btw!! He asks, 'Do you think I'm an antisocial personality? and she replies, in typical throwaway fashion, Of course. Isn't everybody? (or words to that effect) This is actually true. We all have some of those traits, just not taken to the extreme. However, if W wanted to, he could make trouble for J, as a forensic psych. "...noone had dared to say it aloud before.' Yes! So true. And not someone with W's qualifications. '...for Wainwright is just an indicator of how dangerous is Jane's behaviour for which he has to adjust.' Interesting! Maybe W IS there to try and sort out/help treat J's psychological issues. On the other hand, maybe he's the seed of satan and is there to take him down. Dunno, but can't wait for the next eps, to find out. On a light note, this is where I love L's character. She's probably the only one who's never been impressed or intimidated by Jane's powers of observation. Even when he says to her,'liar' etc, she really doesn't care too much, just brushes it off and sails on. Same with J's 'am I an antisocial personality' question. She basically says, Sure, aren't we all? and walks off. Utter reassurance for J. Little Miss Practical. Never let a genius mentalist get in Her way. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
AngryLittlePrincess	10. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 17 2011, 1:12 PM EDT Hi everyone! My apologies for my absence. I have been out of town and really didn't have the time to sit down and put my thoughts....started to say on paper, but on screen is better I think xD First off, let me just say that I totally agree with hypnoclue...SB is absolutely GORGEOUS!!! I love PJ's character more and more and SB does an exquisit job of playing him. Just watched SB on Regis and Kelly...love him!! That said, this episode was just brilliant and it will definitely go down as one of my favorites. There was a lot of lightheartedness as well as the cool seriousness that really makes me think. I loved Jane's Texas accent!! Too funny! "Uzies, floosies and jacuzzis"!! Only PJ could come up with that off the top of his head. Where do they come up with this stuff!!? XD Did you notice the similarity of Jane leading the investigation as he did in 324 Strawberries and Cream? The scenes to which I am referring are where Jane is explaining what the team should do as a voice over while we see the team following through with Jane's direction. J: "We're going to play this like a long con...." In particular, Jane telling Rigs to do the interview, VP to visit the wife and Cho to continue I love this approach. I also like how he calls Tibbs the mark!! As a huge Patrick Jane fan, I like him being in control and we, as viewers, get to go along with him in his scheme! This is Jane at his best....using his awesome conning abilities to solve the case! It's one reason I love this show. cont... Post reply Do you find this valuable?
AngryLittlePrincess	11. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 17 2011, 2:04 PM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 17 2011, 2:05 PM EDT I loved seeing the softer side of Lisbon with how she helped Willie. Ok, so here's my initial thoughts about Luther Wainwright. Now, maybe I'm being a little far-reaching here, but I just can't help but see the continued conversation of Bertram and Timothy Carter with Wainwright. Remember how Bertram told Jane in 324 how he needed to "seek help, take a break and consult a therapist?" Then Timothy Carter told him to move on with his life instead of seeking vengence he would never have. Then we were told that in 401 Scarlet Ribbons, Lisbon and Jane, himself, would question Jane's sanity. Could Luther Wainwright be Red John's attempt to further use suggestion to cause Jane to question his sanity and mental status? Just maybe! For some reason I want to like Luther Wainwright, but I am very suspicious of him as well. If this scenerio is true, then Bertram and Wainwright are working for RJ. This would be the closest any RJ operative has been to Jane and in such an authority position at that! (Of course, we know there is not really anyone in a position of authority over Jane and Jane showed that full well in this epi!!).............you know me, always looking for the Red John connection!!! What did I absolutely LOVE about this epi? I LOVED how Jane conned Wainwright into being the stressor to put Tibbs over the edge! It was brilliant! It's why I like Patrick Jane and The Mentalist!! Love, love, love!!! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
AngryLittlePrincess	12. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 17 2011, 2:11 PM EDT "Hey Princess if you're still around, Took a look at ep 211, and discovered that Jane never did mention the sax, when questioning L about what instrument she played at school. Question answered. She played sax. (I know, being happy over such a mindless piece of trivia is pathetic. Guilty and embracing it, hehe.) In the opening scene, where the protesters were wearing red shirts, are we talking a glimpse of RSRJ, or am I now utterly paranoid about him." Hi hypnoclue! I'm definitely still around. Couldn't stay away for too long. :-) You are so much like me...I would (and do) spend hours searching for the answer to Mentalist trivia. It just shows your love for the best show on television!! Nothing wrong with that. :-) I did the same thing in regard to the protesters in red. I just couldn't help it. I looked especially close around the mayor, since RJ is such a powerful individual. Didn't see him though. Which man are you talking about? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
AngryLittlePrincess	13. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 17 2011, 2:12 PM EDT "I love the new direction they took in the new boss theme. I think Jane outsmarted him at every turn. Grace has gotten to be Zena Warrier Princess,lol. I wonder if she can work thru her trauma by herself? I loved how Jane got to be the boss of the con. I loved Cho saying you are under arrest for the attempted murder of ... everybody. It was an excellent episode." Yes!! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
AngryLittlePrincess	14. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 17 2011, 2:18 PM EDT " As for Van Pelt, I said it once and say it again, I think her role in the series will turn out to be very important in the whole RJ saga. I have never think of her as a damsel in distress but as a dormant volcano who has to do more with Jane and RJ that it seems. Although admittedly I can only guess what that role is, as she is being played too much, specially lately, as a wild card, with noone knowing what part she will play or is playing in the overall game. " I agree that there is more than meets the eye with VanPelt. But I'm not sure if she is a part of RJ's network or if she will turn out to be a great ally to Jane. Red John didn't killer fiance, but in a way he did...he took away her perfect little world of being engaged & getting married. Maybe that's a better definition of what RJ does to his victims/tools...he takes away their world. Anyway, could VP seek revenge on RJ too?? Maybe. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
AngryLittlePrincess	15. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 17 2011, 2:22 PM EDT hypnoclue, you're so right...this epi was FUN!! And I loved it for that. I agree with just about all of your observations! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hypnoclue	16. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 17 2011, 4:05 PM EDT Hiya Princess, Wainwright is so interesting. He's underqualified. He has little field experience, which showed when it came time for the real policing to be done. Good points: He deferred to Jane, re Tibbs. 'What's your take on it.' He deferred to Cho, when C told him not to draw his weapon and to 'hold on'. He allowed the long con by Jane. (He even gave the psycopathy test to Tibbs, in 'the spirit of the con', although this could be interpreted as a way of then using the same test on Jane I suppose. ) * Ostensibly, he was being a good little psychologist in his concern for the welfare of Tibbs, and wanting him to receive psychological help. Bad points: * He did not show the same welfare for Jane. He threw down his 'congratulations Mr. Jane. You're a clinical psychopath' speech to J. To come out with such a conclusion, after one test, reading his file, and very little observation, is just ridiculous. No psych worth their salt would do such a truly Unprofessional thing. And then to simply tell Jane his findings. This man has a Masters in forensic psych. It was actually a cruel and needless thing to do. So why did he do it? 1. He was mad that J had bested him and wanted some payback, like the baby he is. 2. He is, as you say, an RJ tool and trying to mess with that magical mind. Having decided it was the first explanation, you have just given me reason to think it could be the second. Aaaaggggghhhhh!!!!!! I Lurve this show!!!! I had finally settled in my mind, that Bertram is just a pathetic media- wh ore, but no, he could still be on the RJ payroll, along with W. Which would explain why B didn't fire Jane. Very plausible. Oh and apologies to Mr. Cerone. Instead of genuflecting to Mr. Heller, I should've been genuflecting to him. Please write more eps. Such a breath of fresh air. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
OtherWriter	17. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 18 2011, 2:24 PM EDT I liked this episode too. I'm still wondering where VanPelt's character is going to go in the coming episodes. She seems a lot more willing now to go along with Jane's ideas than she was in other seasons. It could be because she now has a tragic RJ connection as well. So far Jane doesn't seem to be too concerned. However, it looks like Rigsby is becoming more concerned and will in the next episode. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hypnoclue	18. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 18 2011, 9:04 PM EDT "I liked this episode too. I'm still wondering where VanPelt's character is going to go in the coming episodes. She seems a lot more willing now to go along with Jane's ideas than she was in other seasons. It could be because she now has a tragic RJ connection as well. So far Jane doesn't seem to be too concerned. However, it looks like Rigsby is becoming more concerned and will in the next episode." Yeah, that's such a great take on Grace and where she's at. I hope she stays tough and we never see a return to the doe-eyed ingenue with the ribbon in her hair. Re J's lack of concern: This is a question that's always intrigued me. The entire team revolves around the unspoken law that no-one talks about nothin. Their private lives are off-limits; and we rarely hear any small-talk regarding same, from Jane. Only instances I can think of, are the bridesmaid dress moment, where J says, 'I told Grace to ask you' (to be a bridesmaid) and perhaps the scene in 116, where G has the dodgy boyfriend. J says, 'I'd like to meet him.' He knows there's something askew there. Then he rattles on about R and G needing to talk, because they have unresolved feelings for each other. Then he drops the clanger about G's past trauma. And PLEASE!!! writers, give us some resolution on this. (Men. They have no idea the insatiable curiosity of women. Obtuse, the lot of them, hehe.) This could all be worked in, Right Now, with Grace's emerging anger and hardness, and her need not to be put upon by another MAN-bar steward. Please arrange this writers. You Have the power. So, whether J's seeming lack of concern comes from this not talking about anything except the Now, or whether it's something else, is fascinating. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hecksbells	19. RE: Chat about 404 Ring Around the Rosie here Oct 31 2011, 2:50 AM EDT "Here's the thing: Wainwright, as a forensic psych, has the power to make or break Jane. Part of his role would be to evaluate the CBI personnel; and he's already evaluated J as a clinical psychopath. Somewhat disturbing for Jane's future, one might think..." Jane's character won thousands of bucks at black jack. He has a genius IQ and no doubt he (his character) would have no problem finding work if he were fired. When has Jane felt threatened by someone's intelligence? His arrogance almost dismissed his new boss--he simply isn't "rattled" by him. He was calling Hightower "Madeline" by the 4th episode. He lacks not for confidence and he sure feels no threat to himself from the new boss. He is very protective of Lisbon. That's a weakness, potentially. My guess is that the new boss is intimidated by Jane. He was quick to both make observations and tell them he had a masters in forensic science--he wanted to impress them. Using a test without interviewing the subject and concluding that person is a psychopath is an indicator that the man using the test is clueless. Hare, PhD in Canada "wrote the questions" on diagnosing psychopaths, and it is no longer done by simple observations and filling our standard questions unless you want to be wrong. Ed Kemper fooled psychiatrist that took that very approach with him. While he took the test a head was in his car and they pronounced him "recovered." I bet he had a laugh over that. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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