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Discussion: He's a machiavellian
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Rjkiller |
He's a machiavellian
Dec 15 2009, 4:31 PM EST
Like if you think about it, Jane is a machiavellian. He thinks that as long as the case gets closed he can do whatever he wants to get there.
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MortalSymmetry |
1. RE: He's a machiavellian
Oct 4 2011, 10:17 PM EDT
KIND of. I'd say he's more extralegal and uncouth more than anything. Machiavellian states how immoral the actions are, but "end justifies the means", right? Well Jane feels justified in his actions, as he targets those who value their position and 'entitlement' over being humane.
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hypnoclue |
2. RE: He's a machiavellian
Oct 5 2011, 1:19 AM EDT
"Like if you think about it, Jane is a machiavellian. He thinks that as long as the case gets closed he can do whatever he wants to get there."Sure is. In ep 215, he says words to the effect, omelettes and eggs; means to ends; all's well that ends well. And he'd just had a pregnant woman interrogated for a murder he knew she didn't commit. There could've been consequences. I don't know why people get so righteous about the way J uses people. It was spelt out for us in the very first ep, when he messed with the golfer's family, knowing none of them was the murderer. His justification? They were 'screw ed anyway.' Even in this last ep, some folks are saying he played with the poor short guy's life, for no reason. Well yeah. It helped bring his team back together. Now they can get on with the Red John hunt. At the risk of shocking, Machiavelli got a bum rep, for pointing out what Princes were doing. Idealism vs realism really. "It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver.' ~ Machiavelli. (Jane?) Do you find this valuable? |
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MortalSymmetry |
3. RE: He's a machiavellian
Oct 11 2011, 1:16 AM EDT
Well perhaps. I'll concede that he has often had Machiavellian acts, though that doesn't mean he is characteristically, explicitly, Machiavellian. If he was Machiavellian, and Timothy Carter was completely innocent yet led him closer to RJ, he would feel justified. But when he met Carter's widow he expressed how unjustifiable to have killed an innocent man would have been.
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hypnoclue |
4. RE: He's a machiavellian
Oct 11 2011, 2:29 AM EDT
"Well perhaps. I'll concede that he has often had Machiavellian acts, though that doesn't mean he is characteristically, explicitly, Machiavellian. If he was Machiavellian, and Timothy Carter was completely innocent yet led him closer to RJ, he would feel justified. But when he met Carter's widow he expressed how unjustifiable to have killed an innocent man would have been."Hiya MortalSymmetry, Mah, for mine, that apology to Madam child-abuser meant diddly squat. It was just J's way of ingratiating himself, in order to get a read on her - a read which led him to re-enter the house and find what she and hubby were up to. Even as we speak, Jane has expressed exactly no remorse for killing Carter, (if I remember rightly.) J called him an 'evil' man. Justification right there. Carter was a paedophile, abusing young girls; and seemingly, got what he deserved, in J's mind. (J might speak about his feelings on killing Carter, in the future, but for now that's how it reads, to me anyway.) Jane without doubt uses people, with no regard for the consequences, in order to make a case stick. It's something I've had to come to terms with, re his character. While he closes cases, he truly hurts people in the process; and having a marshmallow centre, I do find that hard to accept. Yet that's who he is. He's used people from the first ep: Basically, the first words he uttered on the show were, '... My name's Patrick Jane. I'm here to help you.' However, his 'help' saw a wife shoot and kill her husband for having sex with their daughter; and she would have been brought to trial for that IRL. It might have been cathartic for her, but I don't know how helpful it was. And that has been his MO ever since. I agree that he doesn't have all the Machiavellian traits, but oh my, he's heading in the right direction. Do you find this valuable? |
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MortalSymmetry |
5. RE: He's a machiavellian
Oct 15 2011, 3:39 PM EDT
I agree, Jane's motives are not entirely clear most of the time, and even if revealed at one point they may have two meanings at a later point. I only argue that while some actions may be Machiavellian, Jane is not characteristically Machiavellian. I much prefer extralegal for Jane, as if he was Machiavellian his actions would be condemnable, not just rude.
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hypnoclue |
6. RE: He's a machiavellian
Oct 15 2011, 6:37 PM EDT
"I agree, Jane's motives are not entirely clear most of the time, and even if revealed at one point they may have two meanings at a later point. I only argue that while some actions may be Machiavellian, Jane is not characteristically Machiavellian. I much prefer extralegal for Jane, as if he was Machiavellian his actions would be condemnable, not just rude."The dark triad of personality - psychopathy, machiavellianism and narcissism. J displays traits of all three. Then again, so does everyone basically. Cute ending, where J, now a little discombobulated by W's evaluation, asks L,' am I an antisocial personality?' to which she says words to the effect, yes, aren't we all. However, being the an al obsessive I am, I'm thinking of eps where J showed absolutely no guilt for his actions. These are just some off the top of my head: 101 - 'helped' wife to kill her husband - trial pending, no doubt. Screw ed with brothers. 306 - disrupted and stopped a funeral. Irl, not a nice thing to do. 216 - allowed Many people, incl L, to think they were hours from death. 215 - allowed a pregnant woman to be interrogated for a crime she hadn't committed, having planted evidence in her house. 304/5? - allowed an innocent woman already mourning her brother's death, to be taken into custody, letting her think they had evidence against her and she'd be gaoled for 25 years. L said he was heartless, so to bring the woman 'justice' J then set up the gang leader as the 'informant' - which he wasn't - knowing his gang would harm him. A precursor to J's, 'he was an evil man' anyway, defence?? 403 - he apologises profusely to Beth for his lies as a psychic, then Uses her Again!! with a fake psychic reading, to draw out the killer. You could argue, he had to, but even so. 322 - spreads a vicious rumour about the Conductor of an orchestra. Do you find this valuable? |
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hypnoclue |
7. RE: He's a machiavellian
Oct 15 2011, 6:54 PM EDT
I find those actions go way past 'rude' and 'extralegal' and for me, they Are condemnable. Something I've had to just ignore really, to enjoy the character of J. It's all part of his obsession to put away criminals. He'll do anything to achieve that end, in the same way he'll do anything to hunt and put away RJ. It's all part of his monumental need. And it's also the reason he goes out of his way to avoid thanks from those he's helped. But a true psychopath he aint. Too much guilt and remorse for the death of his family for that to be true, surely. Do you find this valuable? |
